MELODY: I did something very naughty the other day.

FAITH: Oooh what did you do?

MELODY: I ate chocolate.

FAITH: Okay and?

MELODY; It was it was really weird. Like I ate the chocolate. I really wanted the chocolate so I ate the chocolate and then I felt really guilty.

FAITH: Why?

MELODY: You know, naughty, unhealthy food stigma that I've got.

FAITH: Okay.

MELODY: Okay okay okay, I know, you're very confused right now. So I was raised on the type of health food messaging, right, where I should avoid certain foods because they are not good for me.

FAITH: Hmm okay, which sounds a bit black and white but okay.

MELODY: I know. I know and it's why I, it's why I'm so conflicted about about feeling guilty as well. Like, I'm very conflicted about eating the chocolate but then I'm also very conflicted about feeling guilty for eating the chocolate. One part of me is going like you know don't eat the chocolate it's bad for you but then the other part of me is like well I can actually eat whatever I want because as long as it's in moderation it's fine because you know it's grey and we live in the grey. Cue intro music.

Welcome to Life in the Grey a Mums At The Table micropodcast where we try to understand what makes us tick and how it impacts our lives and relationships.

FAITH: So back to what you talked about just now right do you still think that there are good food like it's so dichotomous it is good foods and bad foods you know just that you'll take the bad foods in moderation?

MELODY: I'm gonna say yes in that I believe that some foods are better for you than others.

FAITH: Okay, okay but then if you separate out the individual components of the food they still can have nutritional value. I mean, if you think about it, right, even fat can have nutritional value because our bodies need fat.

MELODY: Yes, and that's why when I say yes before I wasn't sure whether to say yes or not but then I leaned on the yes. So let me let me just try to explain a bit further right. I'm not trying to demonise food but I really do think that you probably shouldn't have say something that's full of lard and butter all the time. The keyword here is all the time and I think that there's a difference right, between bad, therefore you should eliminate and bad, therefore you should watch how much you consume. At least in my head that's what I'm telling myself and bad is just kind of like a shortcut label that tells me not to have that particular food so often like chocolate or ice-cream or cheesecake or croissants or um yeah anyway.

FAITH: Which I think is really useful because you know what the thing about shortcut labels is they can be a very useful way for our brains to just make sense of the world around us and make sense of the language that we use and words are influential but the meaning sometimes can be very slippery cause good bad right, the way we label things can have an unintentional effect on eating behaviours.

MELODY: Yes and maybe I should clarify okay so I'll think in my head that certain foods are bad but I would never ever tell someone that they shouldn't eat it because it's bad because I mean that's a bit judgey right? Although thinking about it now maybe I'm being very judgey to myself so I should stop telling myself that whatever I'm eating is bad. I should stop that shortcut as well because maybe I'll stop feeling guilty whenever I have chocolate.

FAITH: Some sort of personal revelation happening on right now.

MELODY: I'm judging myself. Previously we talked about people judging other people but now I'm judging myself.

FAITH: But that's very interesting right because the word bad does have a moral implication doesn't it? I mean that's what you say that's why you use the word judging cause bad can have a moral implication and that's why you feel guilty cause bad can mean harmful and therefore eliminate it totally or for you um it can also mean watch how much of what we eat right, because you have a shortcut in your brain right, and so the word bad is a shortcut that leads you to different different meanings that you can land on right, but the thing about shortcuts is that it makes sense for you because it's in your head you don't need to explain yourself to yourself right, but no one else lives in your head so when.

MELODY: Really?

FAITH: Not not that I know of right, but when other people hear bad it could land in a totally different meaning for them than what was intended. Case in point, remember when we were at the supermarket and then your son like I casually said that juice was not good for us and that we shouldn't drink it. Caveat, that was my way of thinking then I've since changed my mind, right, but I had no idea how much of an impact it made.

MELODY: You tell me man. The amount, the amount of I mean, I told you right, the amount of damage control that I had to make after that. The poor kid he, you know he would come up to me and it's like, "Mummy, you shouldn't drink juice it's bad for you." Oh my, I had to remind him that it's okay to drink it now and then and why.

FAITH: I am very sorry I apologise.

MELODY: It's fine.

FAITH: I apologise.

MELODY: It's okay I'm not trying to make you feel bad but it's just it's a funny story to tell.

FAITH: It is it is and it's also interesting because there is a lot of discussion and research right about labelling foods good and bad and that's part of what I grew and learned from too because I realised and I've learned that labelling foods so dichotomously so so strictly like so black and white can encourage what you call all-or-nothing thinking a moral judgement that can impact self-worth so there is a shift to considering neutral language that describes the food's benefits and qualities like for example words like nutrient-dense, low-calorie, instead of using subjective labels that can vary based on individual dietary needs, you know what I mean.

MELODY: Yes and no like yes, I am in the midst of all this movement about the kind of foods that what I tell my son right and so it's like oh you need to instead of saying this say that, instead of saying this say that but then the thing is you're saying that okay we're shifting towards neutral language but yet at the same time neutral to who? Because just because you consider those words neutral, just because the experts consider those words neutral, does it really is it really neutral for someone else?

FAITH: Because words have meanings that live in our brains and just because it makes sense to us doesn't mean it makes sense to everyone else right and ultimately the direction is the same though because it's it's not about good versus bad all versus nothing black versus white. We're talking about living in the grey right?

MELODY: Grey, yes.

FAITH: Living in the grey where different foods serve different purposes at different times depending on our bodies' needs so we have things like personal taste, cultural preferences, social situations, emotional states even availability, all of this forms this grey right that that just it's not so strictly all-or-nothing anymore.

MELODY: But just to troll you a little right, so we're trying to say . . . I like doing that.

FAITH: The amount of trolling right.

MELODY: I live with a son who trolls me all the time, surely I, actually who got it from who?

FAITH: I know right, who came first?

MELODY: No, too many reflections in one, one podcast. Just one at a time. But really what I'm trying to say is that you know what we're trying to say is that there's no good and bad food that it's all grey so we can have whatever we want depending on the purposes but does this mean then we can consume marijuana or alcohol, sugar?

FAITH: Okay, that's a thoughtful point and I think this is why we we have to consider context right? I mean we said this in the first episode also we talked about in the first episode, we talked about it again in the second episode and I'm gonna bring it up again here, context. Context, information um for instance how does consuming sugar, alcohol, marijuana align with our health goals. Are there legal or cultural factors that could impact our values, our priorities right um are there context and information that can help us to make choices that are not just about the food or the substance itself but also about the context of achieving a fulfilling and a balanced lifestyle.

MELODY: But part of me is wondering though that you know whatever that goal may be there is still a need to watch your quantities particularly due to the impact that certain foods may have not just on our own body but on our actions and other people. Like for example you know my goal in this instance to is to relax or forget my worries and so I drink copious amount of alcohol because well it actually helps me achieve my goals then you know I get behind the wheel and I drive and the potential consequence of that is pretty bad.

FAITH: Yeah, I mean again it's a very important perspective to bring up because it's true what you're saying now is that we have our personal goals right. Our personal goals influence our choices but we don't live in isolation. We live in an ecosystem with other human beings so it's equally critical to consider how our actions can affect others cause responsible decision-making accounts not just for personal desires right it's it's also mindful consideration of how the consequences of our actions can impact others.

MELODY: Lesson I'm trying to teach my son.

FAITH: Lesson I'm trying to wrestle with every day of my life too.

MELODY: So to sum up because this is meant to be a micropodcast. Let's stop thinking of food as good or bad, healthy or unhealthy or whatever labels we have, especially if it means we'll demonise it, eliminate it completely from our diet or feel guilty whenever we consume it. Instead let's look at food as to what it can do to our bodies, how it makes us feel and the consequences of eating it and whether it will impact upon our goals for ourselves, our bodies, our values, our priorities and even those around us.

If you have any thoughts, feedback or just want to reach out we'd love to hear from you. This podcast is as much a conversation between Faith and myself as it is with you and the community around us. Search for Life in the Grey that's Grey with an E and we'll see you next month!