FAITH: My mum was casually diagnosed as a narcissist by someone with no clinical experience and things got awkward real fast.

MELODY: How did that happen?

FAITH: I just happened to share a story from my childhood, something that involved my mother and something that had an impact. And to be fair, it was a little out of the ordinary. And so I can see how someone might hear it and feel compelled to name it. In this case, the label that they landed on was narcissist. So they're like, oh, your mum is a classic narcissist. I mean, it just didn't sit right with me. You know, it's one of those things, yes.

MELODY: To be fair, right? Like, you know, you were saying that the story is out of the ordinary, but we've had multiple conversations and I know that you have a difficult relationship with your mum and you have shared some horror stories. So I'm surprised that you're saying that you didn't want your mum labelled narcissistic. Why?

FAITH: You're right. I acknowledge that I've had some complicated experiences growing up. I would label some of them traumatic, even. And these experiences have taken me quite a while to unpack. Some of them I'm still unpacking. But the label of narcissist, I don't believe it applies here.

MELODY: It's interesting to me as well. Like, you know, you're saying that there's trauma involved, but yet it seems like there's some kind of protectiveness around this.

FAITH: You're not far off here. And there are many reasons to that. And, you know, I'll explain the main one right now, right after we say hi to our listeners.

Welcome to Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast where we explore what makes us tick, how it shapes our lives, our relationships. Melody and I are really just two curious human beings who like exploring psychology and how it impacts us in our everyday life. And today we're talking about labels, specifically the personal responsibility that comes with how we use them.

So coming back to why I resisted when this person labelled my mother a narcissist. And I think the main one is because they started offering advice on how I should deal with my mum. And even though it was well-intentioned, it just didn't apply in my situation. It just wasn't fitting.

MELODY: It's interesting, right? We kind of just like to, you know, give solutions and give advice, which just from the top of my head, I'm like, this is a good plug for our first episode when we're talking about advice and when it's how do we take advice and how do we . . .

FAITH: Unsolicited. Unsolicited advice that comes without understanding context.

MELODY: Yes. But talking about the podcast and previous episodes, I want to go back. What you're saying makes me think about what we said in the last episode, in episode three. No, it was episode five.

FAITH: Which happens, I think, because we keep chatting and talking and then things get . . . Yes, episode five.

MELODY: Okay. We talked about labels and stereotypes. And in there, we talked about how it can help people access help and support. And also the dangers about being put in a box or basically being stereotyped. But then in this case, it's interesting as well, because you've brought up another danger, is that when you mislabel someone . . .

FAITH: You know what? When you mislabel someone, it sets us off on a wrong footing. And reminder that this person doesn't have a clinical background. So again, right? The thing is this, when we mislabel someone and we set off on a wrong footing, we start searching for solutions from the wrong box. We start picking up approaches that are completely misaligned because we've attached a label that doesn't fit in the first place. Right? So we're looking for answers from the wrong places. And you know what? This happens sometimes. I mean, come on. We're human, right? We make mistakes. So for me, the trick is not to ensure that I never mislabel anyone. That's not possible. I'm human. I think the way to go about it is to constantly check in, right? This is what I do. I constantly check in to stay aware and ask myself, hey, is this label still useful? Is it still helpful? Instead of stubbornly holding on to something because I just want to be right rather than doing right. You know what I mean?

MELODY: It reminds me a little bit about. It reminds me a bit of what we do with, you know, be it ourselves or our children, because we see that they exhibit certain behaviours. And so we diagnose them and we think that they may be going down, which may be right, may not be wrong. But I think the danger, like you're saying, is it's about yes, chasing that diagnosis, if that is our gut feel. But yet at the same time, don't make it a be-all and end-all because it's like, I guess it's a bit like, you know, not chasing, not going to all extents to get that diagnosis that you think qualifies, even though all the signs and all the experts are saying, actually, no, it should be something else. But it's a very hard decision to make. And I guess what I'm trying to, what I'm also trying to reflect on is the fact that we're currently experiencing the heights of labelling, correct? I mean, the words trauma, the words ADHD, the word narcissism, it's all buzzwords that we use today. And sometimes we use it casually, like your friend. And I'm not, I'm not trying to be flippant because I know that the reality is that we have increased awareness of these conditions, which is why the labels are coming up more frequently because, and it's great because the more we know, the more we have awareness, the better it is that we are able to diagnose. And the better it is that we are able to give people the help and support that they need, the real, the people who actually need that diagnosis. But at the same time, it's also interesting because I've been doing some reading and there are researchers and experts out there who are now saying that, oh, actually, we swung the other way and now we are over-diagnosing people, which then leads to over-treatment, which then leads to reduced benefits to the medication that they are being given and increased adverse outcomes, basically.

FAITH: I've read similar articles and they give me pause on how I use labels because it makes me feel really mixed about it. Right? Because on the one hand, I really, really want us to normalise these terms. I want us to not be afraid or worried about using these terms because if something is narcissistic, a behaviour is narcissistic, then call it narcissistic. If something is traumatic, call it trauma. I don't want us to be afraid or shy away from using accurate language just because we are afraid of it.

MELODY: And I guess the flip side of that as well is, you know, not just shying away because we're afraid of it, but sometimes you know that that is the situation, so you know that it's narcissistic, but you could be gaslighted, you could be whatever. And so people keep saying it's not narcissism, but you know, and so you keep pushing for it. So on the one hand, you should keep pushing for it. But on the other hand, you shouldn't.

FAITH: Yeah, because I also recognise that there is a concern that if these words become too casually used, and I think this is where some of the articles come out from, some of these words might lose their weight, they might lose their meaning. And then it becomes like, like the boy who cried wolf, right, where people who genuinely do need help when they need it, they're not taken seriously, right? And I guess it's like, it's like bullying, right? I mean, right now, where we are, like in Singapore, right, if you say bullying, you say bullying in schools, there are protocols that will get kicked off right now and put in place where it triggers this whole chain of events where teachers, the system, everything comes up into place and say, okay, we are here to support and protect the victim. And that is good because you want to be able to trigger an immediate resistance, right? To protect people, to protect students, vulnerable students. If it's bullying at work, call it bullying. If it's bullying in school, call it bullying. We don't soften it because we're afraid, we're shy, right? Because clearly, naming something helps us to take the right appropriate action at the right appropriate time.

MELODY: Let's just, let's, let's, let's go down the bullying. Let's go down the bullying, what metaphor, example, and about, you know, going back to, you know, what we were talking about, how there is chasing it because it is correct. And there is chasing it because you think it's correct. And how do you tell the difference whether it is not or? I guess a lot of it has to do with labels and personal responsibility when it comes to using them. What I'm trying to say is there is, so there is, like you mentioned, the school has protocols and there is also a lot of articles out there that you can actually get. And a lot of news articles that talk about how to support your child if they are being bullied. And yet at the same time, I'm thinking that it might be like, okay, I'll caveat this by saying that I haven't done an intensive study where I've done tally marks and I've counted all the articles, but just from what comes through my inbox or what comes through what I see, right? There is a lot of information on how to support your kids if they're being bullied, but then there isn't a lot of information out there on what to do if your child is the bully or just, you know, reminding parents to take personal responsibility to check if their kid is bullying others or even how to raise non-bullies. So this is my theory, right? If there are so many kids out there being bullied, surely there is also a kid out there who is a bully. Like the kids are not getting bullied in a vacuum. So there is a kid who is a bully. So we definitely should support the victims here, but personal responsibility means taking time to reflect on our own behaviours and in this case, our children's as well.

FAITH: So like, where are the articles that say how not to raise a bully?

MELODY: Yes.

FAITH: Which is interesting because I, yeah, that's an interesting perspective because I, yeah, I never did tally marks, but then, yeah, I did. I never really thought about how there seems to be an like an imbalance, right? With the kind of like information that's out there, right?

MELODY: Maybe there is, there is a reason for it that I haven't seen yet, but just, I just feel like there is a bit of a, everyone is a victim.

FAITH: Well, to that point, I guess we are the heroes in our own story, aren't we? I mean, I'm not, I'm not, this is not about blame or like, you know, whatever it is, but it's really just, it's very human nature, right? We are the heroes of our own story. It really is by default easier to point fingers at someone to say, you caused my trauma, you are the narcissist, you are the bully, you are the problem, right? In fact, it is also one of the ways in which we do comfort ourselves and this is a very valid way and I'm not saying that this isn't a valid way, I'm not trying to diminish it, but it's a valid way to comfort ourselves, to remind ourselves that, you know, even good people can be painted as villains in someone else's story and that is true, that does happen. We have to remind ourselves that sometimes we can try our very best and if people don't choose to understand us, there's nothing that we can do about it, it is out of the locus of our control, right? But then when does that, via the spectrum, when does that go from helping us to recognise what's within our control and what's not to becoming an excuse not to confront our issues and our contribution to the breakdown of a situation, right? When does it become where we accept that, yeah, we might not be the hero in their story but we might not also be the misunderstood protagonist in our own words and I think, right, and I guess the tough part, the grey part, which we're trying to do right now in our conversations right now, in this podcast, which we're trying to unpack is that it gets uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable but it's necessary to have this self-awareness that sometimes I can be the source of someone else's hurt.

MELODY: I suppose it's true because it reminds me a bit about, you know, we always say it's really difficult to apologise because when you apologise, you are basically saying that I am the source of your hurt.

FAITH: I messed up. I screwed up. Yeah, I made a mistake. I, in this complicated, nuanced situation, I had a part to play and it's tough because there is this urge to default, you know, to defensiveness, right, to want to protect ourselves, right? We want to protect ourselves, right?

MELODY: Especially evident in eight-year-olds. “Not my fault”, but, you know, it's not just a kid thing. It's more obvious in children but we do it too as adults.

FAITH: It's sometimes maybe harder to see as when we are adults because we do have the ability to rationalise much more proficiently, right? And it really takes effort to sit and face our inner demons and ask, you know, did I play a role here? What responsibility did I have here? Because there is that fear that's inside of us that when we do that, it means that we are to be blamed because there is a very big difference between recognising a role that we played versus assigning blame.

MELODY: Yeah. Right? We put those together.

FAITH: But they're not. It's not the same thing and I really want to emphasise here that, okay, what I'm referring to now is we're talking about situations that are about like everyday relationships. I'm talking about everyday relationships and conflicts. I am not in any way talking about abuse, alright? Where the harm lies completely and fully with the abuser. Yeah, but where everyday interactions are concerned, you know, like relationships, they get complicated.

MELODY: You and I have that kind of disagreements with our partners.

FAITH: We do.

MELODY: So yeah, you're talking about more, I don't want to say less serious, but you get what I mean.

FAITH: Yeah, yeah, right? Very nuanced, multi-layered, right? It's not so straightforward, not so cut and dry, right? Which is what we're talking about the grey, right? It's not so like right or wrong kind of thing, not very clear cut. There's so many layers to it and when we stop, at least for me, the way I see it is when I stop to ask myself, and this is something I had to learn, to differentiate that it is not about when I ask myself, what role did I play? It's not about saying, oh, so that means I'm to be blamed. It's instead saying, hmm, what's my power here? Because I have the power to grow. I have the power to set healthier limits. I have the power to choose not to fault find with my partner.

MELODY: Oh, come on. [LAUGHS]

FAITH: And make my husband feel small and insignificant, but to find a way forward in our relationship that benefits the both of us and makes the both of us feel enriched, right? That there is insight and empowerment that can be found in asking, hey, what role did I play and what role did he play and how did this come about so that we can both move forward better together?

MELODY: And so I guess back to, you know, what we're trying to do now is we're not saying, we're not victim-blaming because yes, there are very real victims out there. But yeah, it sometimes can be an easy excuse where you can say that I'm the victim of bullying, I'm the victim of narcissism, I'm the victim of a medical diagnosis, trauma or something like that. And so it's also the need to inspect ourselves, our lives, our children and try to take responsibility as well to not just immediately assume that the problem lies with someone else or something else.

FAITH: Yeah, because sometimes we are the villain in someone else's story, not because we are just misunderstood, but because we genuinely did do something wrong. But you know what? Good people can and do make mistakes. That doesn't mean that we are a mistake.

MELODY: Definitely. But also, yeah, so that's, I'm just thinking. At the same time, also, we also don't like to know that we, or most definitely our children are the villain, right? Like we like to think that we are always the good people. And so perhaps the grey is that, yeah, like you said, we can be good people, but make mistakes. I guess it goes down to things you can and can't control, right? You can't control the other person, but you can control who you are, you can control what you do, you can control your next steps.

FAITH: Yeah. Okay, so I think we can, I would wrap up today's chat and I think I can have, draw it down to two key learning points. I think learning points for me, right, from our conversation today, and I think number one, labels are helpful, but we need to handle them with care. We have to use accurate and direct language, like we call bullying, bullying, and we don't soften it. But we also have to take responsibility not to overuse and be intentional not to misapply these terms because then we don't take away the power and meaning, right? And the second learning point for me would be, be willing, be willing to respond honestly and reflect on our own role in complicated situations, not about blaming ourselves, but to learn from the experience, to grow, to adapt, to fix our own, right, our own and find that healing that we can fix.

MELODY: Yeah, it's not about focusing on who is to blame, I think. That's, I think that's probably the most important thing is we're not, let's not dwell on who is to blame. Potentially, yes, I may be the one to blame, but let's not dwell on that. Let's learn, let's dwell on how can I do better? How can I grow?

FAITH: Yeah. Okay, so that's all the grey that we have for today. But there's always more where that came from, and you can find us on your favourite podcast app, just search for Life in the Grey with an E, and remember, we are not here to give advice. Okay, we're just, Melody and I, we're just chatting about life. We're just trying to make sense of it as we go.

MELODY: Especially unsolicited advice, we're not here to do that.

FAITH: And if you have thoughts, you have your stories, you even have questions after listening, we would love to hear them. So keep the conversation going by finding us on the Mums At The Table socials. The handle is Mums At The Table, right? And if you enjoyed this episode, you can give us a thumbs up, hit subscribe, leave us a comment, or even better, do all three! Why not? Okay, so we will catch you next month.