MELODY: I had to apologise to my son the other day. I had wrongly accused him of something and I had gotten really angry. Then I realised I made a mistake, right? But the funny thing was, I knew I should apologise because, you know, I knew I was wrong. But then I was fighting against myself. I really didn't want to.

FAITH: Why? Why didn't you want to apologise?

MELODY: I think there were a few factors at play, right? I mean, the most obvious of which was that, you know, I didn't want to admit to a child, my child, that I was wrong. I did apologise in the end, let's be clear. I did apologise to him in the end and it was a really healing experience. But before I actually did it, it was just interesting to think about the struggles that I had because I really didn't want to.

FAITH: Well, sometimes being held accountable can feel like an accusation when we're not ready to take ownership of the hurt or harm we caused others, right? It's all about whether we're ready. And you weren't ready for some reason.

MELODY: Obviously I wasn't. But yet at the same time, you know, because it is my son, I'm not ready, but I will make myself ready because it's my son. I want to have a relationship with him. But with others, I do think and upon reflection, right, with other people, I think for sometimes I'd rather just walk away. See ya.

But before I walk away, let's talk about this podcast. Life In The Grey is a Mums At The Table podcast where we try to understand what makes us tick and how it impacts our lives and relationships. The topics we pick are things Faith and I often grapple with, trying to figure out the right or the wrong way to behave. And today we're talking about apologies and accountability.

And I guess, as I was saying, one of the struggles that I have with this is how sometimes when I apologise because of a disagreement, there's also the added confusion or the potential that I'm
accepting that person's version of truth. Like, okay, if I apologise, it means they are right and I'm
wrong. And I guess the struggle is how do you not compromise your truth and thinking about what are you actually giving up when you say, I'm sorry?

FAITH: It's such a hard place to be, right? Because is holding on to your truth an act of personal integrity, or is it an unwillingness to be wrong or self-critical, right? Where are you falling in right now? Which part of the spectrum are you at?

MELODY: Well, not just which part of the spectrum, right? There's that, definitely there's that. And then it's also the whole like, well, where do you draw the line between being assertive and standing your ground, right? Versus taking responsibility of your actions when you're apologising, and at least even for just the bits that you're responsible for. But yeah, where do you draw the line?

FAITH: I think it's why it gets so complicated for those of us who've been through manipulative or emotionally unsafe environments. I mean, there is a learned pattern of over-apologising, right? And the boundaries, the boundaries of assertiveness versus accountability, that can get very blurred. Because when you've been taught that everything is your fault, it warps your ability to see clearly.

MELODY: Oh, that's bad.

FAITH: Yeah, and sometimes I fight back against being held accountable, not because
it's untrue, but because I've internalised this fear that every apology is a surrender of myself, right? And then I don't know. Is this a moment where I am taking accountability? Or is this a moment where once again, I'm taking the blame because I was taught that yes, others may have feelings and they may own their feelings, but I'm the one that's responsible for causing or preventing them, right?

MELODY: You have a lot of power, don't you?

FAITH: It's really ironic because you hear it as I have a lot of power, but I feel so powerless because it feels like everything is your fault and you have to fix it.

MELODY: Yeah, it's funny how there's like two sides of the coin because yeah, I'm seeing like, wow, you're not that . . . I mean, I love you, but you're not that great. But yeah, I mean, I can see why because if that's how you grew up and that's the kind of impression that you've been given, obviously you will see the other side. And I guess it's kind of, it's a bit like what we women do. I mean, yes, there is the childhood and the family environment, but even gender wise, right? For women, we're always saying I'm sorry. "I'm sorry, can I sit here?" "Sorry, just one more question."
"Sorry, can I point out?" "Sorry, but actually, I think you misunderstood."

FAITH: Do not get me started.

MELODY: Well, don't get a lot of people started because there are multiple studies and news articles that are written about this terrible trait that we women have, right? Apologising for things we don't really need to. We should actually have a count how many times we say sorry to each other in our podcast. Anyway, subconsciously, I feel like we are telling ourselves we're at fault. And at the same time, because of that, it destroys our confidence and our very existence as well. It's like, "Sorry, I exist."

FAITH: Well, sorry to interrupt.

MELODY: Sorry, I take up space.

FAITH: That's the thing, it's the messaging. I can't speak for all, sorry, I can't speak for all women. But for me, it's the messaging that is, whether it's cultural, historical, family, whatever, but the messaging that I was brought up with is that women need to speak softer. We need to behave softer. We just need to exist softer. And even while at this moment, this space in my life where I'm unlearning all of that, the truth is sometimes, and I don't like saying this, but playing up to the stereotype does get me faster and easier solutions, right?

MELODY: I will agree with you. Sometimes you have to be the girly girl to the manly man. And it's like, "Oh, let's help the poor little lady."

FAITH: Yeah, yeah, to get things done. But I worry, I worry if I'm like, am I selling my soul? Okay, I worry if the outcome is worth the price because I recognise in myself that I do have a misguided and deeply entrenched belief that influence equals control.

MELODY: Sorry, wait. Sorry.

FAITH: We need to make a tally of how many times we apologise to each other.

MELODY: What do you mean by influence equals control? Because so you're influencing them into behaving the way that you want, like you're influencing them into helping you. So you control them. Isn't that what you want?

FAITH: Okay, it sounds like I've got a lot of power. Let's unpack this. So we all have a part to play in communicating, right? We all have a part to play. That's what you and I, we are aligned on. So if I have a part to play, and the part that I play, whether it's intentional or not, influenced you to think badly of me, then there must also be other parts, right? Other actions, other behaviours, other words that I can say, I can play, behaviours that are within my control, right? That can influence you to think better of me. So in this very distorted equation, since I have some control over how you feel about me, therefore that influence is equal to control. Therefore, if I have control, the responsibility is now mine to find out what that part is that I played, and then fix it. The responsibility becomes all on me to find out what is that part, because now I have to control, and then fix it.

MELODY: A different kind of control. Okay, got it. But then, okay, I get it, but I don't get it. Okay.
Because, because you know . . .

FAITH: This is where I am also. I get it and I don't get it also.

MELODY: Because it's interesting, because you know, you're saying you have a part, right? And I, that's true, we all have a part to play. But having, having a part is not the same as having the role. And note I'm saying having the role, not having a role. So you're not . . .

FAITH: So I'm having a role, but not the role.

MELODY: Correct. You're not, you're not it. You're not Tom Cruise. You said, so what is this like having a part, right? Like my values are such that I believe we need, we do need to be kind to others. We should treat others that we would like to be treated. So that's having a part. But that doesn't mean that if I was cold and difficult, it's completely my fault because I don't have the full, complete role. So you, I mean, if you don't like it, yes, I might have done something wrong, but it could equally be the same that you could be interpreting something that I've done wrongly. So we both need to consider our actions. It's not just me.

FAITH: I'm not saying it makes sense. That's why I say it's a really weird, distorted equation. Like I get it. And then I also don't get it because I don't get why my brain makes that leap sometimes. Right? And I'm still trying to find that, that I'm still trying to find that, that, that solution to like make that clean cut. Yeah.

MELODY: But thinking about what, you know, what I was, about the whole interpretation thing, right. It's also interesting because I'm drawing it a bit further. So in the context of apologising, right. When you say you're sorry, from your view, you're saying that I'm taking responsibility or even that I'm taking the blame. So I say, I say, I'm sorry, I'm responsible. I'm taking the blame, but then how you interpret my apology could also be the opposite of what you, what I mean when I say, I'm sorry.

FAITH: And it could also be that you say, sorry, you really mean it. And the other person is just not ready to receive it. It's not enough for them. The hurt is so deep. The harm is so entrenched that it's just not enough. And that is so hard to accept sometimes because it took so much out of me to say sorry. Like the sorry is a gold star for me, but to the other person, they're not receiving a gold. They're receiving like earth, dirt, you know.

MELODY: Yeah.

FAITH: It's hard.

MELODY: It's, it's, it's funny as well, because I'm just thinking about that, the whole exchange that I had with my son, right. Cause I told him I was sorry. And he actually quite immediately said it's alright. And to you it's healing, right? Because, well to me it's healing because I'm like, oh, I heard him say it's alright. But then I paused and checked. I'm like, is it really alright? And he kind of looked at me and he said, "No, but that's a nice thing to say, isn't it?"

FAITH: Oh.

MELODY: It broke my heart. I was like, no, you can say, I was like, well, you know, if it's, if it's still not alright, it's fine to, for it not to be alright.

FAITH: You don't have to say it's okay just to make the other person feel good.

MELODY: And you can just say, thank you. Like I said, I told him basically, you just say, thank you. You, you accept the apology, but you don't have to tell them that it's alright.

FAITH: Oh, that's a very important definition. You can acknowledge that the other person has apologised, but you don't have to say that their apology has mended the fence or that their apology has been healing. You can just say, thank you for apologising. I acknowledge that you have done that. And then on your own part, you can then take the time to figure out, was that enough? Was that not enough? Because sometimes we're not ready, not because the apology wasn't enough, but because we are just not ready and we need to do our own thing first. Right.

MELODY: Well, sometimes the hurt is so much, like, you know, eventually you will probably forgive them and accept the apology. But right then, when the emotions are so raw . . .

FAITH: It's hard to tell, it's hard to tell what's what.

MELODY: Yeah.

FAITH: Because maybe eventually when you've processed it, you realise, oh, actually I need a little bit more, but then you would have been calmer and then you can go back and you can say, you know, thank you for the apology. Maybe moving forward, this is what would help us to be a lot closer or work things out better. Right. And you can frame it in a way that's a lot more productive rather than just going straight into like bringing all of your baggage in and expecting that person to heal that baggage for you.

MELODY: And by saying thank you, at least you're acknowledging that you're willing for the bridge to be mended. Maybe not then, but eventually.

FAITH: Right. Or at least finding, if not thank you, because I think sometimes for different people, it's different phrases, but at least finding a phrase that works for that person to just say, "Okay, I just acknowledged that you've done this and we take a pause so that I can take a break and just process what's been happening." Yeah.

MELODY: But then there is the flip side. What if you say you're sorry, but you don't mean it and you do it simply to keep the peace. Cause I sometimes do it, not to my son, but you know, when you have, I try to avoid conflict, like I'm very conflict averse. And so sometimes I say, sorry, not because I mean it, but because I just want to be left alone.

FAITH: I tell you, okay, I'm sorry, but then I'm not really sorry, but just leave me alone right now. Are you done?

MELODY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. I was like, okay, if I say I'm sorry, you're just going to, you know, calm down. Right? But so I say that, and I do that. I admit that I do that.

FAITH: Well, I hope it comes out sounding a little bit more sincere at least.

MELODY: I'm a very good actor. I don't know. I don't know, but I really don't know what they take out of that, but I just feel like I have to do it. But then after I do it, regardless of how they perceive it, I struggle. What I struggle with is how do I do that and still stay true to myself? I feel like I've betrayed myself.

FAITH: Right. Cause there is that, there is still your values, right? Of not wanting to hurt someone.
I mean, you don't want to hurt someone and you do want them to find healing, but at the same time also you are not in a space at this moment, the headspace to want to deal with all of that emotions and all of that, you know, go deep dive at that moment because you also have to value your own protective space, right? You also need to check with yourself. And it's like, for me, I do recognise that kind of struggle sometimes, like how can I honour my values without also hurting someone else, but also not wanting to hurt myself, right? I mean, I don't want to set myself on fire to keep someone else warm, but I also don't want to throw someone else out into the cold, right? Just to protect myself. And it's trying to figure out which value to honour at the moment. And the hard part is, and I found this out is we can't always honour both values at the same time. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. Being true to myself and wanting to bring healing to someone else cannot always happen at the same time. And the more I try to find that perfect middle ground, the worse it gets.

MELODY: I kind of like that perspective though, that you, it's still a value, like you're still trying to bring healing to the other person and just recognising that, yeah, there's no, you can't, sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it.

FAITH: No. And that's the thing is sometimes all I can do is just name the tension, just name it that there is that tension, accept that I have to choose and then ride the waves of whatever choice I've made, because there is no neat formula here, right? There is no technical solution. It's not like one plus one equals to two, where there is a clear, right answer.

MELODY: True.

FAITH: It's a relationship problem. And relationship problems don't have tidy solutions, you know, you don't solve them.

MELODY: Why not?

FAITH: You wish, right? But you don't solve them as much as you just navigate them moment by moment.

MELODY: But no, I think I really liked that whole, yes, I'm trying to keep the peace. Like I'm seeing it as, oh I'm just betraying myself to keep the peace. But if it is a situation in which I'm not protecting myself, but I'm actually bringing healing to the other person, I think I could live with that. I guess the other thing that I've learned about apologising as well is that yes, there is to keep the peace, et cetera. But is that if we want our children to readily apologise, not apologise for everything and anything, but to readily apologise when they realise that there is a need to do it, we have to do it readily to them as well, which was, I guess why, even though I had that tension with apologising to my son, I was like, well, no, I need to be able to do it more readily. And I say it for our children, but I do think, I guess it does apply to all of our relationships as well, especially the ones that we treasure.

FAITH: It's like modelling, right? And also like do unto others, right? You kind of want to like, if I would like this to happen to me, then maybe I should also do it to them first. Although there is a caveat there though. I think there's a caveat there that I've learned.

MELODY: Yes.

FAITH: I have to be careful that when I enact a certain action that I know is good for the relationship, I have to be very careful that I don't think, hey, there's a quid pro quo here. You know, if I'm doing this to you, you better do this for me because then it becomes very transactional. And then I start getting resentful if it doesn't return back to me.

MELODY: Well, I guess it's the whole like, you know, if I say, I'm sorry to you, you need to forgive me immediately.

FAITH: It has never turned out well for me.

MELODY: I know, right? And so actually, well, you know how I was like telling my son, if you're not ready, you can just say, thank you. But what if you're the one apologising, right? And the person just says, thank you to you. It's kind of like, no, but I want you to love me now.

FAITH: Yeah, it's difficult.

MELODY: So yes. It's difficult to draw the line and it's hard to say what is the formula for every situation? Because every situation will be different because, you know, all of us are different.

FAITH: Yes, we're all different. And I struggle with knowing what parts to take responsibility for and what parts to say, no, that's theirs. I want to take ownership where it's needed, but I also know that I've carried things that were never actually mine to carry in the first place.

MELODY: Yeah. I guess this might be a good time because, you know, what are you saying there, I have no answers for. So this might be a good time to introduce this new thing that we're trying at Life in the Grey. This podcast is an insight into the topics that Faith and I grapple with. We don't have the answers and perhaps there is no right or wrong, no black or white. What we want to know though, is how other people deal with living in the grey. Because as you might have gathered from the conversation that Faith and I have gotten, like we're just getting each other's insights and it helps, it really does help. So we're inviting you to share your insights and your thoughts with us with some of the questions we've got. What's your question, Faith?

FAITH: Right. So I'm crowdsourcing perspectives for my question and I'm really curious, right? What helps you to draw that boundary? What do you use as an internal check or a guide that helps you to know for certain, sure, okay, this part, that's mine. This part, mmm. And I would love to share what's helped you to figure this out in your own world.

MELODY: And on my part, I guess I've already kind of talked about it earlier, but I really want to know, how do you stay true to yourself when you say sorry? Not because you mean it, but to keep the peace or to make someone else feel better. Is this something that you would even do?
Leave us a comment telling us what you think. Let's continue the conversation. And if you've enjoyed our chat today, remember to hit that subscribe button. Life in the Grey is a Mums at the Table podcast and we'll be back next month.