FAITH: I'm trusting that whoever needs to hear this will understand. I spent many, many years believing that I'm not good at speaking off the cuff. You know this. You're familiar with this. And you know that I will spend hours planning what I'm going to say and planning all the possible scenarios of what the other person is going to say so that I can feel prepared because heavens forbid that I might be misunderstood or misrepresented. So I'm trying to make sure that I cover all the bases, which is impossible.

MELODY: Your bases are not like second base and third base. It's like 300 different bases.

FAITH: Only 300? I think there's more than that. It's infinity bases. So I think for people who are listening, if this is you, then we are not bad at articulating ourselves when we're caught off guard.

MELODY: I think we all feel that way. Even the most articulated, articulate? Articulate. See? Even the most articulate, not I'm not saying that I am, but even the most articulate person always feels like they're grasping at straws and saying funny things.

FAITH: I feel I cannot do it unless I have everything written down word for word. But I tend to imagine myself as just running off my mouth and just going all over the place until I can find frameworks. And one of the frameworks that I landed on is, "It depends".

MELODY: Okay.

FAITH: Yeah, because I used to have this compulsion when I interact with people who have very strong opinions and then I feel them trying to push their opinions on me.

MELODY: Kind of like enter into a debate.

FAITH: Sorry?

MELODY: You feel like you're debating with them.

FAITH: Yes, I feel like suddenly I have to debate with them, right? The only way to do it is if I also have at the back of my head or in my bag this whole bunch of research all ready all the time. And who has research ready all the time at the top of their heads? Nobody, right? Well, maybe if you're an expert in that field, but who's an expert in every field? Then I landed on "It depends".

MELODY: But then what if they come back and ask you, "It depends on what?"

FAITH: Very good. And I love that you asked me this question, right, because it depends. You see what I did there?

[LAUGHTER]

MELODY: No, you're not giving me an answer! [LAUGHS]

FAITH: Okay, so I will explain how it depends and what's happening. But first, I think I will say more after we say hi to our listeners first.

MELODY: All right.

FAITH: Hello, everyone. Hi, welcome. And I hope you're comfortable. You're listening to Life in the Grey, where we explore inner stuff, what makes us tick, how it shapes our lives, our relationships. Melody and I are two curious people with a shared love for understanding how psychology shows up in real life and how it can help us live with a little more purpose and a lot more grace. And today's conversation is about one small phrase that helps us shift the way we move through hard moments. And that phrase is, "It depends".

And it's a kind of phrase, it's like a prompt, right? That helps me live in the grey, where there isn't always a neat answer. But I still want to hold space for care, for nuance. I still want to hold space for grace. So, okay, what was the question again?

MELODY: I'm thinking about the scenario in which someone's coming with you, right? And pushing their beliefs on you, pushing their opinions on you. And then the reply that you give them is, "It depends". Knowing this kind of people, right? When you tell them "it depends", it will be a, "It depends on what? What? Tell me, tell me, tell me what?"

FAITH: And then I'm back in the same spot, right? Suddenly I have to defend myself, right? Okay. And you know what? You're right. You're right. It's true. Because let's be honest, when someone is that sure of themselves, it can feel like we have to defend ourselves, right? Like why we don't immediately accept their beliefs. There is another layer to "it depends". Because the layer is, I have done the internal work. I've done the internal work to know also that I don't need the approval. But "it depends" does come with a bit of caveat. The caveat is they may be pressing into my space, but I've done the internal work to also know now that, hey, if you want me to open the door, you're like at my boundary right now and you want me to open the door, you got to give me, you got to give me a good reason why I should open the door for you. Also, here's another thing. Yes, "it depends" is a way of gently pushing back against someone's certainty. But the other flip side is it's also a prompt for me to check-in for myself. What's my own bandwidth? Do I really want to engage right now? Is this a person that I want to engage in right now? Is this the time to engage in right now?

MELODY: I guess in a way, it could come across when you say "it depends", depending on how aggressive they are, it could come across as an acceptance to them as well. And then they might back off or you say "it depends" and they might come on a bit stronger. But yeah, I like the fact that, you know, when you say "it depends", it challenges them to think and you're potentially removing yourself away from it as well. So it's not like, "I don't believe you, prove your point." It's "What happens in this scenario that's got nothing to with me. But there is this scenario. Why don't you prove your point?"

FAITH: And I came to that space and was able to do that space when I was able to accept that it's okay that I'm not the smartest person in the room. Because I think one of the drivers of me and I dug deep for this, you know, I realised one of the drivers for me feeling that I had to defend myself was because I didn't want to be written off as somebody who had no credibility. Until I got to the space that's like, hmm, nobody's the smartest in the room. And what's my value here? Do I want to be the smartest? Or do I want to be someone who says, "Hey, I want to learn, I want to be curious."

MELODY: Because yeah, when you enter into a debate with someone, you're trying to defend something. And it could be any amount of things. But when you're going, it depends, and you're not really, you're going, yeah, well, you could be right in some situations, because it depends, right? Like, you are actually opening up the space to the fact that they could be right. But you're just not completely buying into it or not completely changing your opinion into it. Just that in certain situations, they could be right.

FAITH: I'm asking for what is their story behind this story? I'm saying, you're coming to me and saying what you just said is a one-size-fits-all. I'm saying there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to all sizes of life.

MELODY: But I get where you're coming from, right? But one of the things that I'm kind of, it's just kind of come up, right, is that, you know, you're trying to treat everything with, it depends. So this could be right, this could, everything could be right. There's no one-size-fits-all, everything is grey, which, you know, is good. But yet at the same time, does it feel like if you treat everything with this attitude, right, like you kind of don't have some kind of conviction, you don't have like a firm foundation of belief, like, you know, you're kind of like swaying in the wind, being blown everywhere.

FAITH: You can tell I'm excited because I love that question. Because you gave me an opening. Okay, this is excellent. Because right there, you just named a fear that many people hold. You named a fear that I had to dig deep and unpack. The fear that if you leave room for doubt, that means you're unstable. Or worse, you have no backbone. And it's one of the most misunderstood aspects of living in the grey. This idea that nuance means weakness or flexibility means that you lack conviction. Because the more I come to myself, the more I heal, the more I've grown, the more I read, the more the data tells me, the more I realise conviction and curiosity, they don't cancel each other out. I know what I know, because I know I dug deep with the research. I didn't just know because I mean, I did the research. I read the books. So I know what I know. I have the knowledge. And that knowledge gives me confidence in my convictions. And my conviction is what gives me the courage to get curious, because I'm not floating around aimlessly. I know what I know. I know who I am. I know what I value. And I know that life is textured. People are layered. And if we rush to apply one fixed belief to every situation, it's not going to work. It will just end up, you know, you're many layers and you flatten people. And here's the thing, I have the courage to be curious because I'm not convicted to the idea itself. I'm convicted to truth. So if something new comes along, I'm not scared to give it a lot of thought, because one, I care about what's true, right? And because I really care about the truth, I'm not going to toss away my convictions out at the first sign of discomfort. I'm just not going to hold on to them so tightly that they cannot be tested. Because if your convictions are so precious and so fragile that they cannot be tested, then I question what were they based on. Because, you know what I'm saying, right?

MELODY: What you're saying, kind of like, I'm just trying to think about it practically, right? And I'm going to bring in a very important aspect of my life that could be sensitive to some of our listeners. But I want to say that I'm saying this not because I'm trying to, you know, preach or evangelise, but I'm saying that I'm a Christian, right? And so that's my conviction. And that's what I believe. I believe in a God. But yet that doesn't mean that I don't read arguments against God. And I mean, the whole journey into why I became a Christian required a lot of investigations. There was a baseline into going like, yes, I think God exists, but I still need to investigate and figure it out and come to the conviction. And then once I come to the conviction, so this is where I am now, it doesn't mean that I don't hear other people's beliefs. I don't hear other people's arguments. And I'm still open to that. And, you know, some Christians might be horrified to say this, but if a big enough evidence comes across to me and convinces me that, you know, Christianity isn't true. It depends, right? Who knows? I might, see what I did there? But yeah, I'm still open to that. Like, but where I am now, I'm still, I've got the foundation, but I'm still open to investigation. I think?

FAITH: If we follow along this train of thought of Christianity, the history of Christianity itself, and I'm going to say this, but I'm also caveating it by saying that I have not dug that deep into it. But from what I, from my own personal reading at this moment, is it has also evolved over the decades, the centuries, right? It has evolved and new understanding has always come forth. And so if we hold on to the idea, then we're stuck there. But if we hold on to this, to the idea that we want truth, then we allow ourselves to say what truth, when the truth comes in, oh, now we know, now we evolve. But the fundamental thing is still, you know, that we are seeking truth and we want to be aligned with that truth, right? And I'm brave enough to keep learning. I want to keep learning. I want to keep growing. I want to test because you're taking in all of this information and you're testing it. You're testing it. You're assessing it. You're testing it.

MELODY: While holding true to your values to be compassionate, to be kind, to be graceful, yeah, those two, those two don't have to be in opposition. They can all exist at the same time.

FAITH: Yeah, they can. And the funny thing is when we hold space for that, we, and I'm going to use something that you said to me sometime back, right?

MELODY: Uh-oh. Oh, you're quoting me to me.

FAITH: Yeah, I'm quoting you to you. There is connection. We begin to invest. We begin to build connection rather than correction. I love that. When you told me connection over correction, when we can feel that what we hold true for us can still be safe in someone else's, you know, we can still feel compassion from someone else, even though we don't always agree, that's when we can feel a bit safer with someone.

MELODY: And that is the whole point of holding space for the grey, right? Where you don't have to have the exact same beliefs, but you're holding space for the grey that that person's truth works for them. It may not be what you agree with, but you can still have that connection without forcing black-and-white on them, to continue the metaphor.

FAITH: And that you value the relationship. You value the relationship over being right.

MELODY: It's just occurred to me, like, you know, it's about connection and relationships, but it's also got to do with what you believe to be true or not, or information that you've got as well, right? It's also "it depends" because I'm thinking about like, you know, my struggle with screen time or rather my son's screen time. I, to put it in a context, right, you know, a lot of parents struggle with screen time in terms of giving their child a device and then feeling extremely guilty about it because of all the information that we've got out there about how it negatively impacts their mental health. It delays their development. It causes behaviour issues, affects social skills, so on and so forth. Let's not, like, I won't try to make people more guilty. But then I had this interview with a digital wellbeing expert. And what she said changed my perspective and it became like, well, yes, screen time can be bad. And yes, there are studies that prove it. But yet at the same time, it depends, because she points out, there's a few things here. She points out, firstly, the studies that come up with those terrible conclusions about screen time don't actually prove cause. So it proves a correlation. So when they do this, this happens. But it doesn't mean that when they do this, it actually causes it.

FAITH: Oh, I love that because this is one of those things about stats, right? Correlation is not causation. It's one of the first things that I learned when we studied statistics. Correlation is not causation.

MELODY: But, you know, human nature is such, right, that, oh, I've studied this. This has happened. So the cause must be this. But it could be any amount of different things. So we need to keep that in mind. And then the other thing, the other thing that she's saying as well is that, you know, don't feel like you need to ban screen time altogether and live like the Amish because, you know, that's impossible for us. When my son was much younger, screen time was an excellent babysitter, especially when I needed to go have a shower and do it by myself in the bathroom and have some private time.

FAITH: And then you're all alone. You're one person at that point in time. It's like, you know, nobody else is around.

MELODY: And it also depends on the quality of the screen time, when they're having the screen time, where they're having the screen time. And then most of all, this is what, this is what stuck with me and I love it. It's called the displacement effect. So what are they missing out on when they're having the screen time? Are they missing out on basic developmental needs? Are they missing out on essential developmental priorities? Are those being met? If they're not being met, then yes, feel guilty about screen time. But if they are, you know, performing well, if they're speaking when they're meant to be speaking, if they have social skills, if they're balancing it with outdoor activities, then allow the screen time. Don't be ridden with all this guilt. So it depends.

FAITH: So it's like you're saying, don't get so fixated on one aspect. Right?

MELODY: Yes.

FAITH: But rather look at your child as a holistic human being.

MELODY: Yes.

FAITH: And what is the story behind the story?

MELODY: Part of it will be different for everyone. And part of it is, you know, once, as we said before, basic developmental priorities.

FAITH: A different kind of strong opinion that I hear is plant protein is the best. It's complete. It's clean. It's how everybody should be eating. It is held as the gold standard of how all our diets should be. That's my cue. That's usually my cue. When things start to become like everyone, all the time, everything, then it's like, okay, that's a little bit extreme now. Then I'm just like, what? It depends. It depends. It depends on what? On your health, your goals, your gut, your culture, your budget. Because, you know, I mean, I'm going to take this in a very personal direction, right? Because quinoa.

MELODY: Okay.

FAITH: Everybody loves quinoa. Holy grail of plant protein, complete protein source. Quinoa gives me the worst stomach upset.

MELODY: Sorry, I shouldn't laugh.

FAITH: Laugh, please laugh. I get nausea. I get cramps. It feels like I've got like stabbing pains. It feels like a thousand-and-one stabs or whatever. It is terrible.

MELODY: The golden child of superfoods?

FAITH: And, you know, there was a point in time in my life that because it was the golden child of superfoods, I would have forced myself. I forced myself to eat it. And then I suffered like half a day. I happened to tell someone who happened to say, yeah, quinoa should be part of your diet. And I said, "No, I don't think so. Not for me." Because I had come to that stage where I had decided not for me. Because, yes, it may be good, but it's not good for me. And not because I don't value nutrition or value science, but my context is very different.

MELODY: Your gut is very different.

FAITH: My gut is very different. And you know what? I wish I had gotten a, "Oh, wow, I'm so sorry. That sounds awful," you know, but instead I got troubleshooting mode. "Have you rinsed it more? Maybe it's how it's cooked. Why don't you tell me how you cook it? Let's go through how you cooked it. What if you combine it with this?" It's like they couldn't get out of this view that I cannot eat quinoa. Sorry?

MELODY: They did the correction before connection.

FAITH: Exactly. They did the correction before the connection. Exactly. It's like, and you know what they were trying to do? It felt to me they were trying to protect the truth. They were trying to keep their truth intact. The belief that quinoa is best for everybody. So here's the thing. When we anchor ourselves to a belief that is so absolute, quinoa is best for everybody, then you meet someone where this line does not work for them, so then what's going to happen? So you either start to go, "Wait, I need to start changing that line" or you start to think, "No, I cannot afford that line to be a lie. It can't be a lie. It can't be a lie because if that's a lie, that means I believed a lie and I cannot identify as a person who believed in a lie. So now I have to change you so that I don't have to change me." Because otherwise it means quinoa was not good for me as well because it's meant to be good for everybody. Yeah, but no, just because it's not true for me doesn't mean that your story was a lie. It just means that your story was not the whole story.

MELODY: I like this whole "it depends" thing actually because yes, it helps in arguments with you and arguments, potential debates that you might have with someone who's trying to push their beliefs onto you and it helps to go, "Whoa, back off." But from what I'm hearing as well, right, this whole, it depends, is a really good philosophy to keep for yourself as well because it helps with your relationship with others because then you are not the person pushing your beliefs on someone else. You're respecting their boundaries and you're respecting the fact that they have a lived experience that could be very different to yours, your version of the truth and what you've learned, but it is still valid and it's something that maybe we could all explore together to see how it works better for you or for them.

You know what I'm really curious about, right, and it's something that we've just started introducing in Life in the Grey and it is about trying to hear more from the Life in the Grey community. We really want to hear more about your experiences as well and your life in the grey and I guess what I'm curious about with all of this, right, is what, kind of like, what is your "it depends" moment? What is it that you've held as truth or have heard as a universal truth but it doesn't apply to you? I want to know and the reason why I want to know other than curiosity, the reason why I want to know is because I think it helps me therefore create more grey because I'm sure like, you know, as much as I say I like to live life in the grey, I'm sure I've got some beliefs where it's like, well, this is definitely black or white. Everyone should believe this. So I want to hear, I want to hear your "it depends" situation and why it doesn't work for you.

FAITH: We really do want to hear from you because none of us can know everything but each of us knows a little something, right, and when we share what we learn, what we've wrestled with, even if it's still something we're still trying to figure it out, we can help each other. So don't hold back and don't hold back just because you think, "Oh, you know, maybe people already know this." You know what? The world is a big ocean. You never know who's swimming by and you never know who gets to hear it or who needs to hear it. So, yeah, DM us, comment or, you know, I mean, catch us up on our Instagram, our Facebook, leave a comment on this episode's post, right, and we will be reading some of your stories in a special upcoming episode. I'm really excited for that one.

MELODY: Yeah, that'll be fun.

FAITH: Yeah, it'll be really fun. So please keep the conversation going by finding us on the Mums At The Table socials. This is Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast, and if you would like to hear our other podcasts, please search for Life in the Grey on your favourite podcast app. That's Grey with an E. Okay, so that's it for this episode. Until next month, take care of yourself.

MELODY: Bye.